Let’s Start a Couple of Arguments
August 7th, 2009, 10:14 am
It’s summer, it’s sports, let’s argue about some stuff.
1. Styles and the Hall. I know Doug said on the DOH Facebook page that JR is a Hall of Famer, and I just sort of assumed that was true, but then I read Sean Leahy’s post on Puck Daddy called “Is Jeremy Roenick a Hall of Famer? Then So Is Pierre Turgeon“. I don’t know about you, but I don’t generally regard Pierre Turgeon as a Hall of Fame candidate, but his career numbers compare pretty favorably with JR’s. So do Doug Gilmor’s and Adam Oates’, and they’re not in the Hall either.
It’s a bit eye-opening for me. I guess it comes down to some big questions- is a HOF candidacy only about your NHL production as a player? Does JR’s mouth ambassadorship merit extra consideration? What about the fact that he’s an American, the 2nd highest scoring of all time?
After a bit of thought (but not too much), I say, let ’em all in. If Bernie Federko is in with fewer points (and fewer games) in one of the most scoring intensive times in NHL history (the 1980’s), then it’s not time to be picky. The NHL HOF probably is the easiest HOF of the major sports to get into. You can’t start having a conscience about it without advocating purging some of the lesser-deserving. Let’s not get tight-assed now by taking it out on JR. As a wise man (Todd Bertuzzi) once said, “it is what it is.”
2. Is Joe Thornton in the top 10 (or out of the top 50)? I’ve been reading with interest Adam Gretz’ latest series on AOL, where he names the top 50 current NHL players in declining order. As of now, he just named Martin Brodeur at #11, with the top 10 yet to come. So far two Sharks are there, Boyle at #46, and Nabby at #31. But Jumbo isn’t on the list yet. We seen some players that several people have argued are better than Joe already named, like Getzlaf, Mike Richards, and Vincent Lecavalier. On one hand it’s seems ludicrous that Joe wouldn’t be in a list of top 50 players in the NHL. But by the same token, it seems odd to put Joe above some of the guys that have already been named. It should be noted this list is not taking into account future value or contracts- it’s just who is the best right now. I think it’s possible Joe might not make the list at all. What do you think, and which would be a greater travesty?
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I haven’t been reading the countdown, but my first impression is that it’s complete crap. Yes, all countdowns like that are open for debate, but if the criterium used is “Best player right now” how is Phaneuf, Nabby, or Morrow on the list?
Here’s 10 players that could fit into those final open spots (in no particular order): Iginla, Datsyuk, Luongo, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Zetterberg, Thomas, Mason, and Lundqvist. So yes, it’s possible that Thornton, or Cammillari, or Toews don’t make the list. No big deal.
As for JR making the HOF, here’s the issue I have: the league has expanded, but the number of players admitted per year has not. When you’ve got 6, or 12, teams of North American players, admitting 3 per year makes sense. When the league expended, and truly got the best talent from around the world, the number of deserving players also went up. So, I’m with you – they all should get in.
There is no chance Thornton gets left off the list. None. He’s the best player, top scorer and wears an “A” on the President’s Trophy winning team. For goodness sake he won the Hart three years ago.
Jeremy,
I think I made a mistake in highlighting “right now”. I don’t necessarily mean ‘this exact instant’. I thought of it like this: if I were starting a team from scratch for 09-10, with no salary restrictions, who would I rate 1-50? Phaneuf, Morrow, and very likely Nabby would be on that list, 08-09 seasons notwithstanding.
Interesting that you have four goalies in the top 10. Hard to argue with any of those, though I could see someone leaving off Mason because of his age and relative lack of experience.
From Adam Gretz, he says, “It’s simply about the best players right now.” And his list contains many that are not in the top 50 right now. No way is Brodeur #11 – right now. The series against the ‘Canes showed Brodeur has lost a little. Judging by “right now” also means age, experience, and hardware from 3 years ago shouldn’t matter.
Will Joe be in the top 10. I think so. Should he be? Probably not top 10, but without a doubt top 50. Right now, I’ll stand by my aforementioned 10 being better than Joe if I were building a team for the coming season.
After last year’s playoffs you’ve got to rate Getzlaf much higher than Thornton, but Thornton is clearly better than a number of the other forwards on the list. I’d say Thornton should be a 10-20 player. A little more success in the playoffs and, well, you know the story…
Statistically, Brodeur and Nabby definitely don’t deserve their ranking …
Where does Semenov rank?
Doug I’m telling you. Your new handle should be “I (heart) seminov”…
You guys know the best part about this argument? It just reminds me how long we have until the season starts. Ugh.
Grier signed in Buffalo for 1 year.
Interesting, mostly that Buffalo signed a free agent period. I’m guessing one year/1M.
Gotta thank you for turning me on to that Gretz countdown. Now I’m totally annoyed! Nice to see Joe in at #9 (probably too high). But how are 2 of the 3 Vezina finalists not in the top 50?!!
I know if I were building a team for next year only, Center, then Goaltender, would be the order in which I built. No way Lidstrom or Iginla makes my top 10. And if I’m building it based on “right now”, Vezina finalists would get serious consideration.
Is Theo Fluery going to be Doug Wilson’s next reclamation project?
Theo Fluery was my #1 favorite player growing up but I really hope not.
Greiss resigned, also added a different Sweedish goalie (6’6″).
http://sharks.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=469920