DOH 130 – Reflection and Resolution
January 11th, 2011, 9:41 am
The Sharks are down in the dumps, and the Dudes are reflective about it. They address what possible remedies are even available, and more importantly, likely. Is it a situation where the Sharks have to stand pat? Or are the trade remedies available, or even coaching changes?
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Dudes …. You know inlove the show. And moreover I love the tempered attitude that stresses patience and smart moves by our Sharks management…
However I’m gonna disagree here. While I dont advocate for removing Tmac, I think that Dan Bylsma and Peter Laviolette would disagree that it couldn’t be what this team needs. Underachieving over-talented teams have responded to mid-season coaching changes.
And… Im also not advocating trading Marleau or Thornton… I think we all know NTC’s arent fool proof. Players agree to waive them every year. And I doubt any NHL player would refuse if a team really wanted to make a move. Why would DW threaten it if he couldn’t make good on that threat.
Also while I wouldn’t want Wolski and Rosivsl for Joe Thornton, IF I was going to trade him… I’d sure like a fresh top-ten first round pick and maybe a 2nd???
Imagine what DW could do with a deep collection of picks over the next two years. If a “downslide” is coming either way, then the youth movement seems to be sweeping across the new NHL. It won Chicago a cup.
Normally I agree with the stay patient sentiment and im not sure at all what this team needs…But I really disagree that DW doesn’t have legitimate options.
Great podcast though fellas. Always love me some DOH!
Also. Typing on a IPhone makes me sound like a total retard.
You know what would solve all of the Sharks problems?
Jonathan Cheechoo
/dodges kitchen sink thrown by EvilDucks
J/k, great podcast as usual. Agree that there is no situation where I see the Sharks not making the playoffs. Firing TMac would be desperate, trading a star is just not going to happen, so stay the course (and hopefully pick up a Pitkanen on the way) is what we have. C’mon Carolina, we have a shiny speedy Torrey Mitchell and up and coming Derek Joslin for you! Joslin won the AHL hardest shot competition, he can be your PP2 QB! And that’s not all! If you call now, we will throw in a 3rd round pick and Kent Huskins for FREE! That’s right, FREE! (no warranty for Kent Huskins).
Hmm Just a question do you need to enter your credit card number on itunes to be able to review something?
If not, how do you review the easiest? Cant seem to find it..
…and no one even went after Orr. Time to trade for Draft picks and reload for a cup run in five years. This team has no heart.
You guys flat out just don’t know what you’re talking about. Rozsival and Wolski is all we could get for Joe Thornton? Yeah, Toronto and Edmonton wouldn’t be willing to pay much for a point per game center with fantastic size (and not fantastic other things)… Edmonton offered Cogs, Penner, and Smid for Heatley, a winger, when he’d asked for a trade, and Ottawa had no leverage. Brian Burke would trade Kaberle, Beauchemin, and his soul for Joe Thornton. You guys don’t know what you’re talking about. I don’t think there’s really much else I have to say about this. I don’t even really have to explain why you guys don’t know what you’re talking about this time because it’s so obvious.
Also, whenever you talk about someone who suggested we “fire the coach,” please, please stop saying it in this hushed, shocked voice, like you’re the president of the united states under alien invasion, and one of your advisors suggested you might have nuke the entire east coast to stop the invasion from spreading throughout the rest of the country. The way you’re saying it is like, “VP Biden and my fellow advisors, it is with great weight that I bring this up for debate, but after doing extensive research for 30 seconds, some of my advisors, like Advisor Timmy, are suggesting we may, indeed, have to… nuke the east coast. (HOLY SHIT). Also, some wacko fans in san jose are suggesting… firing the coa–. I can barely even say it because it’s just so appalling to even suggest it. Fire the cohhh—. Fire the coaahh—. I just can’t do it. Doug is going to have to do it when we actually start taping because I just can’t. It’s not just that he’s an average NHL hockey coach and I love having a middle of the road team either. It’s also that I don’t know if our relationship will survive if he gets fired. What if he moves back to Canada with his wife and family? Oh golly gee no I just couldn’t bare that. I don’t think I’ll ever find another quite like him. He’s everything to me. You know how much I love the Sharks, right? Then this should tell you how I feel about Mclellan. Sometimes I actually catch myself rooting for the Sharks to lose and not make the playoffs, so that we can spend more time together come jolly spring time. I don’t like it that he spends so much time around all those good looking athletes. Not only would I be crushed if he cheated on me with Couture, but even if he stopped and I decided to take him back, I don’t know that I could because how could we kiss if his lips were chopped off. There’s a reason I chose Todd over that sexy chipmunk from the garden. I hope he has the same good sense when it comes to me and Couture.
Alright dudes I’m going to get back to critiquing your ridiculousness re Mclellan on the hockey side of things. The best hockey coach and tactician on this planet could win the Stanley Cup every year with the Nashville Predator’s roster, or the Islanders roster, let alone SJs. Todd Mclellan has failed to win in two seasons with the Sharks, therefore he isn’t the best coach on the planet. Therefore suggesting he be fired is not some revolutionary concept. If we are truly holding this team to the standard of being the best, then we should be holding Mclellan to the standard of being the best coach. He’s not the worst coach in the league, but clearly is not the best coach alive. if we want to be the best, what business does he have coaching our team?
Well feel free to disagree and debate the people who want Mclellan fired all you like. Just give it its fair billing, and don’t act like you’re so appalled every time someone brings up the idea. What did you call it at the beginning of the show? Some fans with radical ideas? Once again you aren’t giving their ideas a fair look. You’re designating them as radical right off the bat, discrediting them, saying it’s a stupid idea basically. You guys suggested sending Couture to Nashville for Weber, even though Nashville wouldn’t do that in a million years, so it’s not like you guys haven’t come up with your fair share of ridiculous ideas. Just give people their fair shake, and don’t quote their ideas in appalled condescending voices.
Also I’m not sure if you two know, but even when you fire a coach midseason, you’re still allowed to hire someone who isn’t one of their assistants. You guys were having a big laugh making fun of the idea, saying “what, are we gonna fire Yawney? Haha no, he fucking sucks.” “That fucking video guy? Hahahahaha yeah right, he’s an idiot.” “So, sorry, it’s a no go.”
#1. If Yawney and company aren’t qualified to be head coaches, why are they qualified to be assistants on our team? Seems like you’re holding them to a very high standard in terms of, could they replace Mclellan, but otherwise I guess it’s just great that these guys you were making fun of because you view them as so incompetent, relatively speaking, are our assistants.
#2. Like I said, just because you don’t like our assistants as candidates to replace Mclellan, that shouldn’t be sufficient criteria to defeat the idea. Then again this is like trying to teach calculus to 2nd graders, and not mathematically gifted ones. If you could guys grasp this idea you wouldn’t have dismissed firing Mclellan on this basis alone in the first place. You would have thought of this yourselves if you could comprehend it.
Mike: “Am I wearing rose colored glasses?”
Doug: “No! Because I said better than those teams too!”
Do I really have to point out what’s going on here?
I guess I do.
Have you considered the idea that you’re both wearing teal colored glasses?
Dallas have two of the best top lines in the league. Ribeiro as your 2nd line center? He has first line skill. Benn as your second line wing? He has first line skill. I don’t need to say much about Richards and Eriksson. Steve Ott is one of the best centers playing on a third line in the league. Langenbrunner still isn’t a bad player. Robidas should win the Norris as far as I’m concerned. Grossman and Daley are both good skaters, especially for defenseman. Their defense isn’t always perfect, but they can skate better than the Sharks defense can, and it’s not like our defense is always perfect either.
So how are they better than us? At best it’s even, and a seven game series would be a toss-up. Oh look at that I forgot Brenden Morrow. I rest my case. They are an excellent team that some off years, so now everyone still thinks they’re just a fluke. But if you look at the talent there, they are probably better.
Sorry, rose colored glasses. They look rose when you look at them, but when you’re looking through them they tint teal. They’re really cool that way. And not cool every other way.
How apropos that your acronym is, “DOH!” Cuz y’all have taken Homerism to a nauseating level. And I mean that in the most professional way.
Not sure what you’re referring to, but we are fans of the Sharks, and not cagey about it. I’m guessing you mean the bit where we compare the Sharks on paper to other teams in the West. Noting that the Sharks should be better, but aren’t, doesn’t seem like homerism to me. Barring 3 players, it’s the same team as the #2 seed last year, and serves as a harsh contrast. This year they have been mediocre at best, and should be better. If that’s homerism, I guess I’m guilty.
It’s good to see the village idiot is back to complain about everything.
In other news, I’m with Tom on the coaching change. If this was just a 5 game slump I’d agree on staying the course, but the Sharks have had problems all year long. Something has to change and I’d rather it not be trading away young players for stop gap vets. That really only leaves coaching.
I don’t trust the current players and staff to turn things around. This feels a lot more like Ottawa’s fall than it does the Penguins or Blackhawks slumps.
Really, I may be too drunk to realize what is going on here, but is buttercrunch using PARAGRAPHS? And capital letters? Dear god, the speed of evolution in this specimen is truly fascinating! Or was he leading us all along? DUN DUN DUN
Hate to say it, but I agree in part with Buttercrunch-evildoug-whateverthefuckhisnameistoday….
I look to the Dan Boyle trade to see what DW could POSSIBLY get for one of the top three…
It was a package deal but essentially it was Matt Carle, Ty Wyshart, and a first. A young player, a prospect, and a first. I realize Luko was in that you but that’s about what I would expect in return IF DW was going to pull that trade.
Again, I’m not saying we should do it, I’m just arguing against the idea that we couldn’t get any value.
If were sitting here at/or under .500 come the end of February then…. Well the rumor insanity will take over anyways, but I’d seriously consider trading Jumbo and Patty in order to load up on picks, prospects, and young players…. Youth seems to be the movement right now in the NHL.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to argue that the Sharks couldn’t get value from trading their best players. What I meant to do was argue that the Sharks would not be at all better in the short term for trading such players- it would not help the Sharks make the playoffs in 2011. You will not get immediate Joe Thornton value for trading Thornton. You might get high enough draft picks to draft players that could pan out to match or exceed Thornton’s value. But then again, you might not.
I see no reason why Joe Thornton would waive his no-trade clause. He loves SJ, he just had a baby, the media pressure will never get to an unbearable level such that he wants out, and I haven’t seen anything from the players to believe that they don’t have an immense amount of respect for Joe.
Marleau? I know he has underperformed, but talk about slicing off your nose to spite your face. Trade your fastest, longest tunured, most well rounded player who plays on the #1 unit for all facets of your team and who has responded well to every challenge thrown against him and has been your best playoff performer since forever because he is struggling for the first prolonged period of time since 2006.
Heatley might be the most justified to move (barely), but is the toughest with his cap hit. And he invoked his NTC EVEN WHEN HE ASKED FOR A TRADE, what makes anyone think he won’t invoke it now?
HTML is our ship, unless something drastic happens like they miss the playoffs AND they start off next year poorly.
NTCs get waived all the time in the NHL. I think the main motivation for working with a team trying to trade you is because then you have some say in where you go. See Danny Heatley and Dan Boyle…
And if you think they wouldn’t ever waive it, then why would it matter if they missed the PO’s and started off bad next year?
I’m not advocating for such a trade either. Simply saying that I think there is value we could get. I wouldn’t support a move like that until around the deadline or in the offseason. After when this season is lost.
It gets more and more difficult to continue having these discussions every year about our core of players. At some point ties must be cut.
I am getting closer and closer to advocating for a coaching change though. We have seen teams make turnarounds. If I thought something needed to be done now to save the season I’d seriously consider that. Plus, if a partial-to-full youth rebuild is unavoidable at this point, a coaching change might happen either way.
Doug: “Is option two of getting rid of Joe, Marleau, and Heatley even realistic?”
Mike: “I don’t think it’s really possible.”
“You would never full value for Joe Thornton. You would get the reverse of what we did, Sturm/Primeau/Stuart, and you know to those sharks fans who think we should trade one of these “great players,” (wonder why you said that instead of just “these players” hmmmmmm) how would you like it if we got Rozsival and Wolski? …. two disappointing/marginal players. *These are the type of players we’re talking about. *We’re not going to go out and get a blue chip player for these guys*
The downside of recording things you say…
You and Doug did say that the best return we could get for Joe Thornton was somewhere between Wolski/Rozsival and Sturm/Primeau/Stuart. You were set in your argument that we shouldn’t trade these guys from the start, and instead of just saying we shouldn’t, you tried to stretch it to you couldn’t even if you wanted to because all they could get us are spare parts. Everyone on here disagrees with me on practically everything I say, but this is just… you’re well within your rights as Sharks fans to say we should not trade these guys, but the reality is if we wanted to, your assertions that we couldn’t get anything better than Wolski/Rozsival in return is just absurd. If Tom taking this stance too even though I took it first doesn’t tell you how absurd it is, then…
As for you two being bias, this isn’t news. You two are very bias Sharks fans surrounded by very bias Sharks fans who listen to your podcast. That’s why you don’t feel like you’re being bias, because you can’t tell for yourselves (it’s hard to reflect on yourselves sometimes without outside people pointing out if youre being a certain way), and everyone you surround yourselves with here is just as bias as you two.
See you two love the Sharks, whereas I’m very passionate abut them, but I don’t love them like you do. That’s why I can be objective about them when you can’t. I’m probably the only one here who doesn’t love the Sharks, which is why I was the only one here who said you were bias. Now there’s another person who probably isn’t even a Sharks fan, just someone who stumbled on here, and he’s saying it too. Basically anyone objective, or even people like me who just aren’t in love with the Sharks, it’s obvious to them and me that you’re bias. Whereas fellow Sharks fans will just agree with you and be on your side about everything.
As for the better/same/worse team comparison thing, that may be what he was referring to, and it may not be. You are bias in much more subtle ways just all the time. It doesn’t have to be a compare the Sharks to Canucks – “BETTER!” situation. He was probably referring to you guys saying the Sharks were better than teams like Dallas who… you can split hairs between who “have been” better this season, and “are” better… they have been better this season… they “are” better right now, and have been better all season, “are been…” better this season. Let’s put it this way. They have been better so far this season, and they ARE better right now. They’re just better. But you guys watch every Sharks game. You’ve been tied to this Sharks team for years. To you guys Jamie Mcginn was a stud prospect coming into this season. Benn Ferriero and Kent Huskins could land Kevin Bieksa because Benn Ferriero is just so amazing. Look at your fucking pole. Doug you wouldn’t trade Couture for Shea Weber, and neither would most Sharks fans. That’s because Couture is a Shark. If Couture was on the Preds, and Weber was a Shark, and preds fans wanted to trade Couture for Weber, Sharks fans would laugh and say how much better Weber is, including you two. This is a #1 defenseman entering his prime for a two-way rookie who is overachieving in the offensive department. For awhile every single thing went into for him, much like Pavelski in last year’s playoffs. Look how that’s worked out for Pavelski. Couture is not as bad as his 1 goal in his last 10 games or whatever it is, certainly, but he’s not as good as his 18 goals in 35 games or whatever. He has more goals than Ovechkin. Is he more talented than Ovechkin? Is he faster? No. Is he stronger? No. Is he a better skater? No. Is he a better puckhandler? No. Does he have a better shot? No. Is he a better passer? No but Ovechkin isn’t 90 assist man either. Suffice to say Ovechkin is better at most everything, but Couture is just getting all the bounces right now. To an objective hockey fan, that doesn’t mean he’s more valuable than fucking Shea Weber. It means he’s playing with a stud in Ryan Clowe, and everything is going right for them for a stretch of games. But to you guys, it makes him the best player in the league. And even though the Sharks are bad at defense and offense right now (aka bad at everything), somehow they’re better than Dallas who have a more talented and dynamic and versatile lineup, and one that can skate as a team much better than the Sharks can. Only a Sharks fan would say the Sharks are a better team than the Dallas Stars, and that’s precisely the point.
If you’re going to quote me get it right…
I never said we SHOULD trade anybody..!
I only said I thought they were wrong for claiming we COULDN’T GET VALUE BACK.
And I just said I wouldn’t support that type of move until at least around the deadline or offseason.
Also dudes, you seem to be acting like we can’t trade these guys or fire the coach because it’s just reactionary. It’s not that out. etc. The reason I gathered this is because you guys said if we waited until the offseason and thought it out and had everything lined up, then that would be one thing, but certainly not in the middle of the season.
My reaction to this is, you say this every year. Just wait a little longer. Trading them wouldn’t be a reaction to half a season, or a five game losing streak. This is them failing us for years and years. At some point you have to do something or nothing ever changes, and it just goes on and on and on, which it has. Just don’t act liek the people who want to fire the coach are these reactionary panicking idiots with no patience. The players aren’t tring hard enough. The coach can’t motivate the players. The defense isn’t mobile or offense enough. The team can’t score 5 on 5. etc etc etc. The things we’re hearing now are the same things we’ve heard for years. They act like, well we just figured this out, and now we’re going to address it, and grow by the playoffs, “but when are we going to change it?” These are actually problems from last season and the season before. If they couldn’t change them then with the same players and same coach, then obviously the problem is either the players or the coach or both. The problem is these players all have strengths and weaknesses, and their weaknesses have been well-documented, and they’re not getting fixed. It’s been shown year after year that we can’t win with these weaknesses, but Doug Wilson keeps sticking with these guys, hoping for something to change. You have to pull the plug on it at some point.
I remember in 08-09, when we had an injured Grier roaming around the ice, barely able to skate. I remember wanting him gone so badly. The puck died with him every time it came to him because he couldn’t skate well enough to get to the good passing lanes. He’d get closed down way too quickly, so he’d have to rush a pass, and then it would get intercepted, or just go down the ice right back to the other team. I saw he was a huge problem with the team, and i wanted him gone. But Doug Wilson didn’t. He didn’t want to break things up midseason. Well, we got eliminated by the ducks in round one, due in large part to a lack of any scoring from the bottom two lines. Mike Grier had no goals and was a minus player I believe. After that season, he was identified as one of the problems, and let go of in the offseason – your way. But you want to know the thing about that? It was too late. The season was already lost. We were already eliminated. It came months too late.
So if the problem with our team is that Joe Thornton can’t carry a team, because he can’t shoot, and doesn’t shoot, and he doesn’t really do anything at all that amazing anymore; he just goes to battle along the boards and hopes to grind out possession, and then goal. Or the problem is Marleau because besides a few lucky goals every 5 games, he’s absolutely invisible. Or if Mclellan’s the problem… how many more seasons are we going to waste before something is done? Maybe if you do something now, we’re celebrating a cup come the offseason. But if you wait till summer, hey anything is possible, but you’ve probably got another wasted season.
Did *I* quote you wrong TOm or are you referring to someone else? I don’t recall saying you said we should trade them. I said you took the stance that we could get more back for those guys than what the dudes claimed, just like I did. That’s it.
You are correct. I misread you. Apologies.
Heatley doesn’t have NMC anymore.
I hate giving this kid attention, but I think these giant essays of his are the only worthwhile thing in his life right now. Poor kid is prolly a doomed little aspie.
Hey AdamandEvildoug, tell me what you really think. At this point, I think all options are on the table. Just taking a top down look at the situation, can’t fault the coaching staff for the system in place. I can’t even fault the GM for the moves he had to make in the offseason. There is enough talent to get the job done.
I do not think it is homerism to think that these top 6 forwards could deliver a top8 or top4 finish in the Western Conference. Even the goaltending has not been horrible, Nitty’s post-Christmas slide notwithstanding.
To me, the problems lie squarely with the players. There are defenseman that have not lived up to the role they have been given, forwards who are not delivering a high enough intensity shift to shift, and players across the board making too many mental mistakes at critical moments.
I don’t think a Heatley, Thornton or Marleau trade is on the table. Murray, Clowe, Boyle and Couture are also untouchable in my opinion. Everyone else is on the table. One or two key players could be moved before the deadline, and I think from now until the trade deadline Feb 28th, those players are playing for their jobs.