Let the Fatalism Flow
April 23rd, 2009, 9:30 pm
Quick thoughts immediately after the game:
- It’s getting really hard to defend Joe Thornton now. Like, REALLY hard.
- It’s hard to win a series when 4 opposing players (Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, and Hiller) are playing better than any of your guys.
- It’s also amazing that the Sharks seem completely unaware when the Ducks’ dominating first line is on the ice, and they just leave guys alone in the slot area.
- The Sharks have outscored the Ducks 2 periods out of 12.
- Dan Boyle, with his 3 point game in game 3, leads the Sharks in playoff points even though he doesn’t have a point in any of the other games.
- I’m so glad the Sharks won game 3 so I get to watch the season’s destruction up close and in person. Oh yeah, I get to spend $80 for the privilege.
- Needless to say, I’ve been drinking.
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Joe who?
Whatever you do Mike, please don’t drive tonight.
And thanks for the button below.
cg-
Joe Murphy. You think he’s ready for a comeback?
And Ivan, don’t worry, I’m not going anywhere- there are no cliffs in the immediate vicinity.
it’s too bad. I’m concerned that the second line has seemed to disappear as well. As much as I try to tell myself the team has changed, and I do usually believe it, they seem to still cling to the tradition of mailing in 60-70% of their playoff games.
Has Todd been stubborn to cling to the 1st vs 1st line matchup?
game three was just Dan Boyle’s bid for the captaincy next year. I say give it to him next game.
My problem with Joe is not so much what he does with the puck but what he does when he does not have the puck, its terrible he shows so little intensity, hew might as well just give the Ducks a big old hug when he goes by them. Its sad that they do this to us every year they play one or 2 games that are so good they make you belive everything is going to be alright and then pull the rug out from under you. The Ducks shut down Boyle because lets face it aside from Clowe who else did they really have to watch out there?
I am pretty bummed out we have a team on paper that is a stanley cup winning team and is as good as any in the league but with such a horrible colapse in the first round they are probably going to trim their salary and the guys we are going to be left with all have no trade clauses and didn’t show up. The most ironic image was after the 3rd or maybe the empty netter when the camera showed Doug Wilson who one has to expect to be fearing for his job at this point through a bunch of smoke… the smoke being our season I’d assume. Sorry for the negativity no drinking here just 4.5 hours of sleep.
lol I fell asleep after the second period. That was how entertained I was, kind of like when I stayed up late to watch all of game 2 last week. I was disappointed to wake up this morning and see another shutout against the boys.
Clowe as usual looked good.
So does DW blow them up in the off-season? Is DW even still around?
My concern now is that we’ve mortgaged our future a bit too much on this season’s team… I hope the window stays open, but damn it’ll be hard to watch another 82 with ANY confidence in these guys.
…or maybe we can come back from 1-3? Does JR turn into Voltron and put the guys on his back starting Saturday… go sharks?
Seeing them crumble like this is sad. If they lose in this round, it really makes me wonder if bouncing Ron Wilson really was the right decision I like Todd Mclellan as the coach, but it doesn’t seem to be only a coaching problem, it seems to be an inherent complacency somewhere in the locker room.
I’m wondering why we haven’t seen a line of Michalek Pavelski Setoguchi at all. When Clowe was injured this was our best line.
Looks like they didn’t fire enough Wilsons last year. Send the Ducks some blue chip prospects for yet another third line grinder and an injured #7 defenseman? Sign a has-been like Claude Lemieux?
And I agree with those who say Boston won the trade for “wilting Joe.” The guy’s a magician: disappears in the playoffs. I wonder what we can get for him.
“The Washington Capitals, Philadelphia Flyers, Carolina Hurricanes and (incredibly) the San Jose Sharks are all facing elimination. Some have shown fight in the face of adversity; others seem snake-bitten; and others are the San Jose Sharks.”
-Puck Daddy
That about sums it up.
Watching the post game interview, you can see the frustration in Dan Boyle and Blake. Doug Wilson has some big decisions to make ahead. I hate to say it, but I this team will not get through the playoffs in the future by adding cup winners, it will do it by removing consistent playoff losers.
It hurts to watch the Sharks lose, but what hurts most is to watch just hand it away.
There are lots of excuses why the Sharks are losing but the fact is the Ducks are a better “team”.
I think we lack in the emotion department which is needed in the playoffs. Here are the guys who play with their hearts and the others that seemed stoned out of their minds. Sorry, this might piss a few people off.
Emotional/lay it on the line guys: Cheechoo, Clowe, Grier, Lemieux, Moen, Pavelski, Roenick, Seto, Shelly, Blake, Boyle, Luko, Murray
Emotionless: Goc, Marleau, Michalek, Plihal, Thornton, Ehrhoff, Semenov, Vlasic
It’s time for DW and GJ to sit down with Joe T and tell him we no longer need him. Give him a list of teams interested in him, have him pick one or two and work out a trade. Michalek is another passenger with a big contract and no value in playoffs. Ship Joe to Toronto for their 1st round pick and someone else, and move on. Or package Joe T, Mihalek and Goc for Kovalchuk and begin a new era.
It’s no coincidence that the best run the Sharks have had in playoffs was without Joe.
There is also no more need to take on any veteran projects. Thank you JR and Claude, but these guys have had enough of chats in the locker room.
I think we’re all upset, depressed, angry, confused…..etc. As for trading the team and firing DW – I am trying to reserve judgement for a few weeks. While I don’t have much hope, we do still have another game to play, folks.
Needless to say, this is beyond disappointing.
There are two separate problems here:
1) The Sharks have outplayed the Ducks 3 out of 4 games, and yet are down 3-1. The Ducks got a couple of bounces in G1, absolutely stole game 2, were lucky to get out of G3 with only a 4-3 loss, and got exactly the score they deserved in G4. This series could have been 3-1 Sharks, should be 2-2, but its 3-1 ducks. That’s just hockey.
2) But, the reality is that the Sharks came in to G4 down 2-1, and needed to take it to the Ducks. They mailed it in, particularly the “leaders.” The ones that had the most to prove (Nabby, Marleau, Thornton, Michalek, Vlasic) were dominated. Best player on the ice for the Sharks IMO? Torrey freakin’ Mitchell. That’s a look in the mirror problem. I swear, if I were Torrey Mitchell, I would be up in Marleau and Thornton’s face challenging them to bring it or stay home Saturday. I have never before criticized Marleau’s “quiet” nature, as I think his even keel approach has big advantages. I have never criticized Thornton’s cerebral style, because it usually works (even in the playoffs). But there are times for calmness and patience, and then there are times to blow the f*ck up and show everyone who happens to be in the vicinity that losing the game will bring the wrath of god from your captain and offensive leader. I think its obvious which of those this situation requires.
Ruben,
Right on the money. +1
As an aside, I really don’t think trading Joe or Patty is the answer (unless we get someone of equal value, which is about 5-10 other players in the entire league). It took John Elway years to win a Super Bowl. Ray Bourque had to jump ship to an already contending team to win a cup. A-Rod may never win a WS. Talent usually wins, but unfortunately for the Sharks, sometimes it doesn’t.
I’m not in the camp for firing Doug Wilson. Up until this series who did not think we had the personnel to take the whole thing?
I do think if the Sharks end up going down without a fight that we need a shakeup within the forwards.
Ruben
Then what is the answer?
They’ve changed a coach. They brought up new players who all have won the Cup. And yet here we are again, and it’s not even May yet. This team has taken a major step backwards. Ron Wilson never lost in a first round, nor did he ever lose a series in five games, which is what the outcome will most likely be.
Are we going to just forget it, call it an accident and try to do the same thing next year? Eh, let’s just say, fifth year in a row? Or are there bigger problems with this team than just few posts and a goalie who loves softies?
If Sharks did not suck since January, I’d just call it an accident. But impassionate play and mediocre offense that we’ve been watching for months cannot be an accident.
Finally, do you have any doubts that Detroit will have any trouble taking care of Anaheim in the next round?
After trading away their superstar…How smart does Boston look now?
Boston still have won as many Stanley Cup as the Sharks – none. In fact, they have far less playoff rounds and games played than do the Sharks.
This series illustrates the difference between regular season hockey and post season hockey.
The thing that has to be very concerning is the number of PPs. Once your PP got life in game 3, the Ducks showed they can play a more disciplined game in game 4. So do you insert Lemieux for game 5 to try to get the Ducks to take more penalties?
Wu,
Correlation is not causation. By all accounts, Boston could have gotten more for Joe. Sturm, Primeau, and Stuart are not the reason why Boston is good. They are on their 2nd GM and third coach since the trade. They fired Dave Lewis. How smart does Boston look now?
Here’s another example that’s let stars go- Ottawa. They let Chara go, traded Meszaros, Eaves, and Corvo. How smart does Ottawa look now?
@ Ivan M
I mentioned this on Fear the Fin, but I think it is too easy to look at results and see a problem with the process. Results are clear, black and white, easy to point to. But the process of winning isn’t a math formula. My favorite example is usually John Elway. He didn’t win a Super Bowl until he was 40, but no one truly believes he was “better” at 40. When he got smoked 55-10 by the Niners, and then lost every year in the playoffs, people called him a choker. Suddenly, Terrell Davis and Mike Shanahan come along, and boom, he is a clutch performer in the Super Bowl with his “helicopter” TD. Those are story lines, not meaningful measurements of a player’s contributions to success.
I feel that many people underestimate the sheer random chance that is part of nearly ever sports’ playoff system (and sports in general), and too many attempt to attribute that random variance to individual personality flaws. That’s not to say Patty Marleau can be TOO quiet or Joe Thornton TOO nice, but trading them away would do more harm than good.
And sorry, Boston, that was still a terrible trade. The fact that you have acquired other valuable talent doesn’t change that.
I don’t mean to diminish the human element, here, either. This isn’t some random simulation on NHL 09. Sports are played by humans, and there are many singular examples of “will over skill” as seems to be the new catch phrase in San Jose. Thats why I am so frustrated over Game 4. Maybe I am underestimating the “human” element, but you know, the Red Wings were considered chokers at one time too. . .
Bruins fans… Ugh…
If we traded you Chara for Thorton this would be a conversation but to make the JT trade such a smart decision because look where you are now then your delusional, as Mike pointed out it was such a good trade that you have had multiple coaching and GM changes and we have changed 1 coach.
The problem is, Ruben, is that Sharks is also a business that will lose money due to a short playoff run this year. A number of season ticket holders renewing their tickets will take a huge dip this year, and some businesses will not renew their advertising contracts. They won’t be able to raise ticket prices next year to compensate for this year’s losses, overall this is a bad situation for all involved.
I don’t think the owners of the club will be able to just sit there and do nothing about this, hoping somehow by some miracle this debacle won’t repeat itself. I sure as hell know I wouldn’t if I was the owner.
The financial impact is what concerns me most, the people with the money are probably going to want to see heads roll and although its justifiable you don’t want to see the wrong heads roll. I think if DW goes he is an unfortunate casualty of this blunder. A year ago I would of said JT is off limits as well as Marleau now I would see them go for the right players but not just getting rid of them for the sake of shedding salary.
If DW goes though all bets are off for this offseason I’d assume.
If I were DW…
I would first lock up Clowe for a good long time. He was looking like regular season Joe Thornton last night. Next, I would keep as much of this crew in tact as possible. Then, after a spectacular regular season has put us way ahead again, I would trade as many guys as I could (save the character guys) at the deadline, get some real playoff performers and perhaps some picks, and take a whole hearted run at the Cup, instead of this BS we have been seeing for the last 4 years. The window for this team is extremely narrow, so if this season is shot, next may be our last chance.
I think they’re playing with a lot of injuries, and a lot of our guys don’t like to play with injuries. Perhaps the training and coaching staff coddles them a little too much in the regular season?…
So Mike/grier,
If they bow out tomorrow night, or the following game, are you going to renew your season tickets?
Also, did anyone else go to the “State of the Sharks” last off-season? There were a lot of angry fans there… I can only imagine what it will be like this off-season. That is, if team management has the balls to hold the event again.
I know we can still win this one, so there is still a tiny bit of optimism in my gullet. But if they don’t, how anti-climactic will it be to see the President’s Trophy banner raised into the rafters…
I’m in for season tickets as long as I believe the ownership and management are honestly trying to build and keep a winning team. Although everyone has their own criteria for renewal, I’d like to see anyone argue that the Sharks haven’t been operating in good faith.
@Ivan M, Ian
The financial impact can’t be denied. I don’t know how you sit there and watch your investment basically throw away millions of dollars of playoff revenue by failing to get out of the first round. No doubt about that. I hope the owner’s keep ponying up, but they are businessmen, not necessarily in it for the civic pride of a (successful) NHL franchise. That side of the ledger is not really something I have thought too much about, though I am sure it is part of the equation.
From a hockey perspective, however, I have a hard time seeing a Sharks team that has a better chance to win it all minus Joe and Patty (Nabokov? Maybe that is $5mil that could be better spent, but that is a talent issue, not a “choker” issue).
And, like Mike, I will continue to be a fan of the Sharks until they stop operating in good faith.
It may not be right to compare it to season tickets but its as close as I’ll ever get, so my Center Ice will be renewed next season lol.
The reason we are all so angry is because we have a passion for this team and it will take more then this to shake my faith in the team. I may not like the idea of what could happen from here but I have been a fan since day 1 and I don’t plan to ever change that.
Ruben
Look at the 03/04 roster (our best playoffs season). There was no Thornton. There was no Boyle. There was Ron Wilson. There was Nabokov. There were Korolyuk and Marleau and a bunch of no names.
I don’t think it’s about how many stars we have. It’s about how they fit the system and how they give their all on the ice. Last night very few people were giving us their all. Joe was the worst one of them all, and his behavior of how he dissappeared from the building before journalists showed up, as Pollak reported today, tells me all how much he cares about us, fans.
At the same time, there was Detroit that allowed 5 goals from Columbus. They could easily have phoned it in, let BJs have their first token playoff win, and then take care of them in Detroit. In fact, I thought that what they’ll do when I saw the score was 5-5 with 1 minute left. What did they do? They scored a GWG with 30 seconds left and now they’re all resting till next round while we’re all here praying for a miracle we all know won’t happen.
I think we all have a right to be angry. If the Sharks didnt win it all and still made it to the conference finals, I would probably be OK with ut. What makes this season so hard is the first round elimination (yes, its going to happen).
Ian
Paraphrasing the English, the difference between a marriage and being a true hockey fan is that you can’t divorce the team. They can lose 0-20 tomorrow, I’ll still look forward to the next season and the next and the next. We invested a lot in this team on emotional, time and financial basis that it’s painful to watch them just skate around last night like its preseason, but we’ll get over it.
I’m not going to jump and start cheering for another team, or start paying more attention to another sport (all other sports suck anyway). Will I lower my expectation for the next season? Sure I will, at least for the sake of my mental health. But there is no need to give up on this team, and this is the only NHL team I’ll ever care about.
Ivan M
In 03-04, Marleau had a great postseason and Nabokov had probably the best 15 game stretch of his career (helped by super defensive defenseman Hannan and McLaren). I mean, NIKO DIMITRAKOS was the #4 playoff scorer on that team. You just can’t account for that stuff. I’d much rather have Joe Thornton and Dan Boyle than Niko Dimitrakos and Mike Rathje, playoff labels be damned.
Now, Joe had a TERRIBLE game last night. Marleau lost EVERY battle he was in last night. Its frustrating, no doubt. But that 03-04 maxed out its potential. That was as good an outcome as that team could have expected without an good amount of more luck. I’d rather have this team, where they have the potential to just steamroll teams, and outplaying the opponent 3 out of 4 nights in the playoffs is unacceptable.
Ruben
I’m not as attached to the players as I’m attached to the overall Sharks brand and result. I’d be happy to have Semenov be our no. 1 defenseman and lead the team in minutes but have us perform in playoffs and at least get to the conference finals, rather than have a group of likable guys who all do so well in a regular season but than magically disappear in playoffs.
It’s fun to hear all the jokes from Joe Thornton and see his beautiful passes in the regular season, but I’d trade it for Datsyuk’s terrible English but never ending hitting in playoffs or even for Crosby’s constant whining and diving but a mad playoff effort in a heart beat.
Speaking of hits. Did you notice how many hits Marleau and Thornton averaged so far this round? It’s a bloody nonsence, especially if Marleau was charged with a checking duty.
One thing that adds insult to injury is how after not doing shit on the ice, JT and Marleau quickly dressed and ducked out on the press. What kind of leadership does it show to the rest of the team to lay a stinker like that and not even be able to own up to it?
rather than fast forward to the off season i’d like to male a few points about moves I wouldn’t mind seeing for game 5:
1. Start Boucher. A part of me wants to see Thornton benches too but I’d settle for one or the other. This is both a call out to the individual player and the team.
2. Starting line: Clowe, Mitchell, Roenick, Boyle, Murray. Make it very clear to everyone in the room they are starting foe their hustle and passion.
3. Use a true checking line (Moen, Mitchell, Grier perhaps?) against the Perry, Getzlaf, Ryan line and free our offense to skate at them.
4. If Joe isn’t benched then he better not skate away from any more after whistle fist-a-cuffs or he rides the pine.
5. Todd, for the life of me find a way to make people move their feet, especially off the puck which is where we are losing every foot race, every battle for position, and the series.
Sorry for the typo, stupid iPhone auto-correct…
One other thought. I get the sense that Todd has been telling them “everything’s going to be all right” in the room before and after every game. And I don’t need RW’s antics again, I think we all know better than to think that could work with this group. But he needs to light a fire under this group a little bit, and maybe that’s him showing his green side a little.
Nick, you’re right on.
Boucher should start tomorrow. Nabby, while he didn’t get any help last night, has been mediocre at best. Definitely not worthy of blind loyalty.
Bench Marleau and start McGinn, give the C to Boyle.
I love Patty, and I love Joe, and I like Nabby, but after seriously reflecting on this series I think the blame starts with them.
Here’s a “what if” for you… what if they pull out a miracle and crush the Ducks in the next 3? Or even the Cup? Are all sins forgotten?
Brian – have you watching Capitals game?
Well, I have news for you. Sharks do not have Ovechkin who shows more energy and effort in one shift that some of our leaders in all of playoffs..
Ivan, pure gold my friend. lol