Episode 58 – Email Bonanza
July 29th, 2009, 9:50 am
Still nothing from the Sharks, so the dudes lean on their most precious resource- the listeners. Like the lady said, treat them well and let them lead the way. In addition to listener emails, the Mike and Doug run down how each of the Western Conference teams did, and continue on with Crazy Trade.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: RSS
Loading ...
I’d like to point out I previously brought up going for Ruutu when all this Heatley chatter first started popping up. If you’re going to employ a pest, might as well get one of the peskiest ones out there…
You had me at hello. You lost me at “Vlasic for Ruutu” 🙁
Nice podcast again, dudes.
DUDE,
You mentioned Cheechoo as one of your top 4 wings.
Here is the issue with moving Marleau to a second line center. I guess you guys and Adam forgot about this, but it was the issue back when RW was coach.
If Marleau is your second line center, that means one of Michalek, Cheechoo, or Clowe has to be on the top line. Clowe is the closest to being good enough, but Cheechoo and Michalek are not top line forwards. On Detroit Michalek is a 3rd liner. Cheechoo would probably be a 4th liner. But even if you put Clowe on the top line, then Cheechoo and Michalek are your second line wingers.
Basically to simplify it, moving Marleau to second line center means you have to replace Pavelski with Cheechoo in the top 6. And Pavelski is better than Cheechoo. We want pavelski in the top 6. But if Marleau and Thornton both play center than Pavelski is the odd man out, and Cheechoo gets replaced.
If you want more balance between the top two lines, then the better solution would be to move Marleau to second line LW. The wing positions are better for scoring goals, so it actually helps Marleau’s production playing wing. Just tactically the wings are higher up the ice, and it is a position more tapered for speed.
As for Thornton vs Lecavalier. How many seasons has Thornton outscoerd Lecavalier in goals?
There are two assists given for every goal gentlemen. Therefore for players getting as many second assists and first assists, the goal statistic is twice as important. This doesn’t hold true for JT because most of his assists are 1st assists, but for all the ones that aren’t his doing they aren’t really as meaningful statistically as Lecavalier’s goals.
But Lecavalier’s talents are better tapered to perform at that high of a level. Just like Lecavalier is better in the playoffs. It’s because he is a complete offensive player, and Thornton isn’t. Lecavalier can pass, shoot, skate, stickhandle, get by people, and has size. Thornton can only pass, skate, has size, and shoot not as well as Lecavalier. Thornton is a stationary playmaker who can’t score regularly. Lecavalier can be a playmaker too (not as good) but can also score.
And to Ryan Garner’s last blog. Yeah a lot of those moves are bad. like Heatley for Thornton? What I think he means is that Heatley is a better player than Thornton. Or would at least help the sharks more because he is a goalscorer. I agree with that. But obviously it would be stupid to trade Thornton for Heatley not because Thornton is better, but just because you can get Heatley for way less!
So the latest blog, some of it is stupid.
But, otherwise, Garner is one of the most objective, accurate writers of the Sharks.
LOL.
You can’t rely on Heatley as your go to guy?
Uhhh, yes you can, especially compared to JT.
That being said if I wanted Heatley in and JT out, I would trade Michalek and whoever depth for Heatley, and then trade Thornton for a shitload more.
Your welcome
Forget stats guys. And forget which goalie Halak was. That’s just when the coach plays him, not how good he is.
Plekanec is better than Michalek, and possibly Marleau. He’s better with the puck on his stick anyway. Montreal had a bad year last year. He had a good year before.
Okay there at least you admitted you haven’t watched him. The talent analysis is he’s a smooth skater like Marleau, but with much better puckhandling skills. There was an article about how the sharks are a north south team with not enough smooth puckhandling, and how Plekanec would help that. And that’s true. They’re way more than one player away from gettign the help they need in that area though. But yeah that’s what Plekanec brings. He will give you 65-80 points on the sharks next season playing on the top two lines.
And don’t even try to rationalize the huskins deal. Nick Boynton, Beauchemin, many more beter defenders getting signed for less or similar money.
But overall as the general theme you guys are correct, the latest Garner blog has a lot of ridiculous stuff on it. But plenty of his other critiques have been good.
You guys, Moore would be a great signing. I thought you guys actually wanted scoring on the third line? Sign Moore for 1mil per season to 1.5 mil per season and you’ll have a better offense. Why not??? Either you sign him or you find another guy who can score you goals in the playoffs with such a low cap hit.
Bryan Murray leaked the edmonton trade information to try and get a better deal out of the nY rangers. That’s why the NY rangers stopped negotiating with ottawa, out of their loyalty to edmonton, and because they thought was murray did was wrong, leakimg the info like that to try and get a better deal. the ranger deal for heatley was about to happen, then murray leaked the info, so then ny said they wouldnt negotiate anymore for heatley, and then used the cap space theyd just freed up by trading scott gomez to sign gaborik instead of trading for heatley.
yor welcome
LOL,
Vlasic for Ruuto?
I’m sorry but I’m done listening to your podcast guys.
One last thing.
Guys, really? Again, do you know how to assess talent? Do you watch other games? Pominville is not the same as Michalek. There is a huge difference, or else why would there be a difference in how the perform, their production? Pominville is smaller, but he’s more skilled. Just because they’re both fast does not make them the same type of player. Just because Michalek is fast doesnt mean he’s “dynamic” like one of you said, more “dynamic” than Sharp, just because he’s faster. Sharp and Pominville are both more dynamic than Michalek because, and this is especially true with Pominville, they have better, faster hands, and better balance on their skates.
Pominville is a shootout specialist. He can puckhandle. Michalek can’t deke a goalie to save his life. He has improved but his hands are nowhere near as fast or accurate as Pominville’s. And what goes hand in hand with that is skating ability. And i’m not talking speed. I’m talking the type of balance and agility that makes one just a better skater in the sense of figuring skating. Pominville is better on his skates. Remember how Michalek always used to get knocked down every time a defender came close to him? That’s because he wasn’t very good at skating. He’s improved but he’s tstill no natural like Pominville is. Pominville can produce more regularly and against ebtter opponents because he does have that ability to weave in and out of defenders, deke goalies into giving up room to shoot the puck, get around his defender to create 2 on 1’s close to the net, to create passing lanes.
The same is true with Derek Roy and Connolly.
No offense but I think you two could really use a scout/talent analysis correspondent to help with your show, someone to who sees a lot of every team in the NHL and who watches games in a certain way that is different from the way most watch the game. Someone who actually pays close attention to each individual area of each player’s game and can give your listeners a real idea of what certain players are good at and what they aren’t. It’s not that you guys are bad. You’re pretty spot on 60% of the time or so, but the rest of the time it hurts the show. I just don’t think you guys pay attention to certain parts of the game.
I mean, besides heart, and all that, can you tell me why Getzlaf, Ryan, and Perry were better than Setoguchi, Marleau, and Thornton? Like what specifically about the players on anaheim’s top line is different than the players on the sharks top line simply in terms of talent? Marleau is supposed to be one of the fastest players in the league, with an amazingly quick release (so ive heard anyway), a great skater, so then what makes Getzlaf, Perry, and Ryan better than him? What makes Getzlaf better than JT? What makes Ryan and Perry better than Setoguchi? Just in terms of skill. In terms of ability (no heart, or attitude, just in terms of skill).
Do you know? And that only involves players you watched a lot in sharks games this year, and in the playoff series. What about more abstract guys on Montreal, Florida, like Booth, Weiss, Horton, what do they bring to the table? Etc. I doubt you can give accurate scouting reports on most of these guys, so you should consider getting outside help. I would help you guys scout and bring in quality gem players but now I know you’d just end up trading them all for Jarko Ruuto right away anyway so what’s the point? But I’m sure there’s someone out there.
Also I forgot to add Sharp is very creative off the puck at getting open. Michalek is not.
figure skating
Dudes, thanks for taking my question on the podcast. Josh, I guess my issue with Marleau being on the 1st line is twofold: (1) SJ has an advantage in that they have 3 centres that can play on the top 2 lines; and (2) San Jose had difficulty generating ES offence.
SJ should take advantage of the match-up problems having 3 scoring centres presents. We can mix and match the accompanying wingers, but at virtually all ES minutes, you will have either Thornton, Marleau, or Pavs on the ice. In a way, it’s the same strategy Anaheim used at ES on defence for Pronger and Niedermayer — they don’t usually play together so one of them is always on the ice. Pittsburgh generally rolls out Crosby/Malkin/Staal separately. Yzerman/Federov, Sakic/Forsberg, Lecavalier/Richards, all generally played separately at ES.
If a team decides to play SJ strength against strength, then Pavs draws the easiest defensive pairing and forward line. Having 3 lines anchored by centres that can score like SJ tilts matchups in their favour as someone is going to draw a 3rd unit. Especially with the salary cap, it’s hard for teams to even field 2 lines with strong 2-way pivots and we have 3. I just feel like we should be making teams match up with us, instead of us turning a luxury — having 3 centres — and making it more conventional. If Pavs is as good a two-way centre with hockey sense that everyone keeps saying, that makes the 3rd line an actual threat to score and not just dump the puck in and give the 1st two lines breathers. I like Mitchell and I wouldn’t banish him to the 4th line, but play him on the 3rd with Pavs.
I agree with the point made in the podcast about faceoffs. But, maybe Joe was getting thrown out more last year because he knew he could with Marleau backing him up. Despite being criticized for his faceoff ability when he first got traded here, he’s been pretty good in the circle throughout.
As for Joe carrying an inferior winger with him, well, he’s been doing that his whole career, basically, and making it work. And making his linemates a lot of cash in the process. He makes anyone a threat with the coverage he draws and his passing. If Cheechoo is on the roster, he only has value if he plays with Joe. Ironically, last year’s wingers were probably the best line he’s played with (as a full unit) and he had a pretty pedestrian season by his standards. Anyway, at the end of the day, it’s just line combinations as we wait for real news to trickle in.
Dudes – in your discussion of the top 2 lines for next season I began to wonder. Do you dudes think it’s a good thing for the team to have one player (Thornton) seemingly permanently solidified in a particular roster spot (1st line center) ? I agree that it’s good for the team to have consistency, but do you think it is positive for the team culture to have one player who is THE default in every situation?
Joshhatrick – with all due respect, I think the podcast/blog is more about creating a discussion than creating an objective scouting report. The dudes just talk, and you and the rest of us draw our own conclusions about their ideas and opinions.
I didn’t provide any reasoning for my choices at center for the Canadian Olympic team, but I don’t think it comes down to a Lecavalier-Thornton choice. It’ll more likely be a Getzlaf-Thornton choice. I think Vinny is a lock b/c he’s French-Canadien, and leaving the biggest FC off the roster would not be tolerated. Unfortunately, in Canada, there’s going to be some politics behind the roster.
I did see some comments suggesting Crosby might be played at wing, but that Joe still wasn’t a lock, then. It’s Joe’s two-way presensce that needs to be on display early in the season.
Jeremy, interesting point on Lecavalier, I didn’t think about the political aspect of it.
Thornton is also going to have to compete with Eric Staal and Jonathan Toews. Getzlaf and Mike Richards are going to be locks on the team. There have been several Canadian media scribes, like Duhatschek, who have pretty much written this. And, considering their play, it’s not surprising.
Staal was a beast in the playoffs, and he has had as much, if not more playoff success (performance) as any Canadian forward outside of Crosby. 43 points in 43 games including 19 goals. Thornton fans may pause at selecting Toews and cite his only scoring 69 points last year. But, he notched 34 goals after going the entire month of October to start the season without a goal. Plus, everyone raves about his two-way game and he’s a player that is going to get better in his 3rd season and make another possible leap. What you see is what you get with Joe at this point. Toews scored more goals in his first playoff run than Joe has had in four playoff runs with the Sharks.
Sure, Canada is going to need a balance of scorers and playmakers. But, goal-scoring was a real problem last time out, and it seems like guys such as Staal and Toews have more to offer than Thornton. Nash/Getzlaf/Heatley is going to be one of their top 2 lines, reprising the World Championship success (hopefully). Four years ago, that was Gagne/Thornton/Nash. Getzlaf has replaced Joe as the playmaking centre — in the last 2 years, Thornton has just 4 more assists than Getzlaf — with more grit and playoff success. Crosby/Iginla/??? will be the other top line, with Sid at wing or centre.
Making the team strictly as a centre has to be as difficult as being goalie for Team Canada.