DOH 136 – MASSIVE TRADE WEEK
February 23rd, 2011, 9:09 am
The Dudes are delighted that the Sharks got Ian White (despite Mike’s wariness), and the number of massive trades that have happened in the NHL the past few days. Oh, and the Sharks are still winning! All that, and some listener questions, as always.
Fashion is not a tight shirt holding a stick
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Dudes,
Enjoyed the podcast as usual. I know that you guys kind of dismissed the criticism of Heatley on a recent podcast saying something along the lines of “well, I knew this is what we were getting.” Really? He is on pace for his worst scoring season of his career. I know that Heatley has always been a player that has shown inconsistent effort, but he still has always found a way to put up 39+ goals. I know all of the top players have been disappointing when it comes to scoring, but for some reason none have been as frustrating as Heatley. Hell, at this point, when you consider the cap hit, I may rather have Michalek.
I had actually written in to the dudes about this (I was the one had gone onto behindthenet as far as his advanced stats).
And when it comes down to it, Dany Heatley plays against the toughest competition on this team, and despite his lower scoring is still a plus player. That tells me that his flaws defensively are greatly exaggerated, mainly due to his lack of physicality. Not only that, he is the second best PKer on the team in terms of goals allowed per 60 minutes, despite playing against tougher competition than Marleau and Nichol 5v4.
So you have a guy that on his down year is still nearly a 30 goal/60 point player, plays deceptively strong defense (probably better than Joe Thornton, who has been lauded for his defensive progress but only has great takeaway #’s and an awful +/- to show for it) and plays in all situations. He has a demonstrated ability to perform in the playoffs (he is a PPG player in his career, even last year when he was hurt, and even was a PPG player in the Oylmpics).
I certainly think he can do better offensively, but based on his shooting percentage, I think its just a matter of time. The eyes see what they want to see.
In another, amazing, blockbuster trade… Ducks trade Curtis McElhinney for Dan Ellis…..
.
Whaaaahaaaahahahahaha!!!!!
Good move by Tampa to clear that salary off their books. Not sure that it helps the Ducks at all…
mkay, what is wrong with that photo of Nabokov, exactly? Would you like to google some of other hockey stars? no problem, here you go
Sidney Crosby
http://blog.top10workouts.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/sidney-crosby-menshealth.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/JesGolbez/crosby_gq.jpg (my favorite)
so please! Don’t insult our franchise goalie, only because he’s on the cover of sports magazine. And I’ve seen much tighter shirts on many “classy” players
😉
This was the photo sent in by Hannah, and we read her email on the podcast. I thought it would be only fair to post it.
Mike Smith was just waived, could see the Sharks claiming him if Nitty is injured long term.
Ian White is a good pickup at a good price, but “I thought we’d have to give up Setoguchi,” and comparing him to the Beauchemin deal, etc… I mean Doug, you’re completing overblowing this whole thing.
James Wisniewski, expiring contract, to Montreal for a 2nd round pick.
Eric Brewer, expiring contract, to Tampa for a 3rd round pick and mediocre prospect.
These are the comparatives. Ian White’s price was RIGHT in line with these other moves. It’s not some thievery by Doug Wilson. The Beauchemin deal, for one, was a big overpayment. It would be like if Atlanta traded Zach Bogosian for a fair return, but everyone said they didn’t get enough back because they didn’t get a Chris Stewart and Kevin Shattenkirk type of return. You can’t compare deals to the biggest overpayment comparative, and then say it’s thievery because you didn’t pay as much. It’s thievery compared to the overpayment. Compared to everyone else, compared to reality, it’s normal.
And secondly, Beauchemin is not an expiring contract, which doubles his value right away.
Onto Ian White…
He is a #4 defenseman. He is an above average defenseman. He is a slightly above average skating defenseman. He makes an above average first pass. He doesn’t have a lot of fancy to his game. He’s not a great playmaker, doesn’t make many creative passes. People keep saying he has an amazing shot, but from what I’ve seen, he’s got just a normal shot, maybe a little above average. He’s much more of a Tony Lydman type (except Lydman has been much better) than a Dan Boyle, if you understand what I’m saying. A poor man’s Dan Hamhuis, for example. Not really great at anything. Solid in all areas, but unspectacular. He is NOT what you two have been clamoring for for years, that #2 Seabrook type guy, or even a #3. He is completely unspectacular. He’s not what you think at all, Doug. You have him pegged completely wrong. This is a 35 point type of guy who’s a little above average defensively. Hate to break it to you.
STICKHANDLING.
You’re mentioning Datsyuk now…
Do you think, maybe one of the reasons our “stars” never seem to produce in the playoffs as well as the other stars in the league, like Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Crosby, Malkin, Toews, etc, is because our stars actually can’t do a lot of things, SKILL things (not effort), that the other stars can’t? I mean, maybe Joe Thornton isn’t a playoff performer because he doesn’t have the agility, hands, or shot of those players? He’s big, he protects the puck with his butt, he can pass, but that’s it. He’s not as versatile or complete as these other guys (complete on offense), and to succeed in the playoffs, you have to be able to do it all ways. Whatever your strength, in Thornton’s case, the cycle, board play, etc, teams will key on that and try to shut it down, and you have to have the versatility and skill in all things to take what they give you and do it that way. So when the defense takes away Thornton’s cycle and the passing lanes, does he have the quick, Ovechkin (or even Toews) release, and their accuracy, to shoot and hit the top corner with regularity? Does he have Datsyuk’s agility, puck-handling, first-step, and creativity to beat defenders 1 on 1 and take it to the net? I’ve never, ever seen him do it, so… maybe he’s not good enough? Heatley is probably the one guy who can do it all on offense (along with Boyle but he’s a defenseman), but beyond that, do the others have the versatility, the all-around skill? Clowe maybe, also. Couture is versatile, if not necessarily at the level of these others in any area. But beyond that, Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, etc, do these guys have the all-around skill to succeed in the playoffs?
Sharks fans are always talking about what amazing players tehse guys are, as skilled as they come, yet then whenever a Datsyuk or Kane or Ovechkin comes to town, you guys mention all these things that they can do that our guys can’t. So which is it?
Doug: “Doug Wilson, I don’t know how you keep pulling this off brother!”
Jesus. Again, Doug, you’re going to find yourself disappointed once you actually watch this guy play a little bit more. Jason Demers is twice the player on offense as Ian White.
Ian White is a poor man’s Dan Hamhius only in the sense that he is cheaper. Hamhius is older, scores at a lower career rate despite getting more time on the PP, and really has been so highly regarded because he is a former first round pick that had a career year his second year in the league and has played with Shea Weber.
“This is a 35 point type of guy who’s a little above average defensively. Hate to break it to you.”
A guy who is in the top 20% offensively (by points) and top 50% defensively (by your “analysis”)… Yet isn’t even good enough to be in the top half of Dmen of a hypothetical team (“he is a #4 defenseman”)? Sorry, that guy to me is a #3 Dman who still has growth left to turn into a lower level #2
Isn’t Patrick Marleau the leading goal scorer in the playoffs among active players, or #2 behind Jarome Iginla? Did you know Patrick Marleau has scored at a slightly higher rate in the playoffs (.71 PPG) than Pavel Datsyuk (.69 PPG)?
Facts… amazing how they get in the way of someone’s “reality”
“Sharks fans are always talking about what amazing players tehse guys are, as skilled as they come, yet then whenever a Datsyuk or Kane or Ovechkin comes to town, you guys mention all these things that they can do that our guys can’t. So which is it?”
Proving yet again two things… One, you’re an asshole, and two you aren’t a Sharks fan…
/and the thread exploded…
“But beyond that, Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, etc, do these guys have the all-around skill to succeed in the playoffs?”
Here are your answers:
Pavelski:
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/03/inside-joe-pavelskis-red-hot-playoff-run/
Overall playoff statistics for active NHL players:
Goals
6. Patrick Marleau (45)
Goals per game
8. Patrick Marleau (0.424)
Powerplay goals
7. Patrick Marleau (17)
Short-handed goals
2. Patrick Marleau (4)
Game-winning goals
3. Patrick Marleau (12)
Shooting percentage
4. Patrick Marleau (16.67)
So thats top 8 on 6 statistical leaders charts for playoffs….
(Oh and yes.. Ovechkin is on only one of the lists for active players in the playoffs)
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_statistical_leaders
Joe Thornthon also contributes in the playoff…. (Not only with a naked chest)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KncivVwxFFE&feature=fvwrel
Oh yeah… New Jersey in the playoffs?!?!?!? I’m surprised you even got 3-1 beer odds, Doug!
Enjoy your beer Mike, that one is in the bag.
Ruben, I’m sorry you don’t understand commonly used NHL terminology but you can’t blame me for not talking down.
Top “#” hockey terminology 101.
Top 3 forward does not mean the 90th best forward in the league, or anyone in the top 90, just because there are 30 NHL teams, and 3 forwards per each team’s top line. For instance, the 90th place player in NHL points right now is Jack Johnson.
He is not a top 3 forward.
He is a defenseman.
The FORWARDS above him? Brendan Morrison, Jakub Voracek, Teddy Purcell, Stephen Weiss, Scott Hartnell, Taylor Hall, (Liles, another defenseman), Brad Boyes, Patrik Berglund, Alexander Semin (who’s only played 48 games though), Recchi, Hemsky, Leino, Moulson, Doan, Samuelsson, Dubinsky, Kovalchuk, Morrow… even at 69 we’re still in the Olli Jokinen, Joe Pavelski, Jussi Jokinen territory.
Do you understand?
That is the logic you used. I’m not sure where you got the percentages, but you said Ian White is top 20% out of defensemen offensively, top 50% defensively, so you split that = top 35% overall, and the average NHL team carries 6 defenseman, so top 35% on a 1-6 scale = a top 2.1 defenseman. So Ian White is a top 2.1 defenseman according to your logic.
It doesn’t work that way. We are judging the Sharks against the best teams in the league, because those are the teams that the Sharks will compete with for the Stanley Cup.
Chicago: #1. Duncan Keith, #2. Brent Seabrook. #3. Brian Campbell. #4. Niklas Hjalmarrson.
Now we slot Ian White in on that team. Keith, Seabrook, and Campbell are clearly miles ahead of Ian White. As for Hjalmarsson, Ian White has never played at the level Hjalmarsson played last postseason. However, Hjalmarsson has not played as well in this regular season. Therefore, Ian White may be ahead of Hjalmarsson, and slot in as the #4 defenseman on the Blackhawks. Best case scenario, he is the #4 on Chicago. However it is just as likely he would be the #5. Therefore, on Chicago, a #4-#5 defenseman.
Philadelphia: #1. Chris Pronger, #2. Kimmo Timonen, #3. Braydon Coburn, #4. Matt Carle, #5. Andrei Mezsaros.
Pronger, Timonen, and Coburn are clearly better than Ian White. Matt Carle and Andrei Mezsaros may very well both be better than Ian White. At best, White is ahead of Carle and behind Coburn, and slots in as a #4 defenseman. More likely, he is their #6 defenseman behind Andrei Mezsaros.
Detroit: #1. Nicklas Lidstrom, #2. Brian Rafalski, #3. Niklas Kronwall, #4. Brad Stuart.
I, personally, think Brad Stuart is very overrated in the (defensive) hockey sense, positioning, fundamentals, etc. departments, so I would slot Ian White in as the #4 on Detroit. Kronwall, at least when healthy, is all around better, especially on offense, where he is much more explosive. Ian White would be Detroit’s #4.
Boston: #1. Zdeno Chara, #2. Tomas Kaberle, #3. Dennis Seidenberg, #4. could be Boychuk, Mcquaid…
Seidenberg in my mind is very underrated (opposite of Stuart). I can give you the benefit of the doubt and slot White in above him if you like. It doesn’t really change the point. Maybe White is the #3 on Boston. Maybe he’s the #4. Boychuk even played at a much higher level last season as Boston’s #2 than White ever has. If Seidenberg and Boychuk are going really well, White could be the #5. But we can say #3 if you like here.
Vancouver (when healthy of course): #1. Alexander Edler, #2. maybe Dan Hamhuis, #3. Ehrhoff or Bieksa, #.4 Ehrhoff or Bieksa, #5. Ballard.
Keith Ballard has not been at 100% so far this year health wise, but over the years he has been a much better two-way defenseman than Ian White. Back to the front, Edler, that speaks for itself. I’ll touch on what you said about Hamhuis here. Hamhuis may be overhyped, but he’s still a better defenseman than Ian White. He’s a better skater, for one, and better defensively. Bieksa has always been terribly overrated for me, but everyone in Vancouver says he’s been fantastic this year so who am I to argue. Ehrhoff obviously brings a lot more offensively, may not be as good defensively. White could slot in as the #6 after Ballard, or the #5 in front of him, the #4 in front of Bieksa, let’s say. I wouldn’t put him above Ehrhoff. That’s #4 at best, possibly lower.
Los Angeles: #1. Drew Doughty, #2. Jack Johnson, #3. Willie Mitchell, #4. Rob Scuderi.
The top two don’t need explanation. Willie Mitchell, when he’s played for L.A, their record is exponentially better. He’s excellent defensively, but doesn’t bring the offense. If I’m picking between the two, I’m taking Mitchell. Rob Scuderi is very underrated. I’d slot White in after Mitchell as the #4.
Washington: #1. Mike Green, #2. Dennis Wideman, #3. John Carlson, #4. Jeff Schultz, #5. Alzner
The Capitals have been very good and very underrated defensively this year. Carlson has been fantastic, and could possibly flip with Wideman. Green needs no explanation. Wideman is very underrated. He’s better offensively than White and just as good defensively. Carlson I would take over White, now and for the future. He’s been fantastic this season. If you just watch the Sharks games, you saw him in the game where Green was injured, and he took over the #1 mantle and was just fantastic all game. Jeff Schultz is very, very underrated with his skating and defending. Not skating for offense, but for covering people.
So, if you asked George Mcphee to trade you Schultz for Ian White, you can be sure he’d say no. Schultz won’t provide offense, but he’s better than White all-around. If you want to be super pro-Sharks and go with the positive spin, White is still the #4 at best behind Carlson. Hannan, even, in the playoffs, is a great, great defender. He stood out for Colorado in the postseason last year. Alzner also is very underrated. Great defender, better defensively than White, no offense, so it’s hard to compare. There’s a good chance that if White was playing on the Capitals, Hannan and Alzner would both get more minutes than him, and certainly more minutes in key situations. At BEST he’s a #4, at worst he’s #7 on their team.
Pittsburgh: #1. Kris Letang, #2. Paul Martin, #3. Zbynek Michalek or Orpik, #4. Michalek or Orpik. They even had Golisgoski as their #5 up until a few weeks ago.
Letang is way better. Martin is way better. Michalek is miles better defensively, and can also skate a little and do a little on offense, if not much. Orpik is fantastic two-way guy, not a ton of offense but can defend, hit, skate, everything. I would not take White over a single one of those guys. White is a #5 on Pittsburgh, and would be a #6 we did this before Goligoski got traded.
You can even take some of the more terrible defensive teams, like Atlanta and Carolina.
Atlanta: #1. Byfuglien, #2. Enstrom, #3. Oduya? Hainsey? Bogosian! At best White is a #3 on one of the worst defensive teams in the league. At worst he could be behind Oduya, and Bogosian obviously has way more skill than he does, he just has no confidence, isn’t happy, etc.
Carolina: #1. Pitkanen, #2. Corvo, #3. Mcbain or Gleason, #4. Mcbain or Gleason.
I’d take any of those over White, and Rutherford agrees! lol. I suppose you could argue Gleason has had a slow year, fine, so White is the #4 on a bad defensive team and not the #5. Pitkanen is miles ahead of white. Corvo is very, very far ahead, probably being so much faster allowed him to get so far ahead, along with being better on his skates, having quicker hands, quite possibly a better shot, etc. Mcbain is has all the potential in the world. Could be the next Brent Burns, at least offensively, in terms of that are combination of size, great skating, great first pass, etc emerging a little later in the point production wise. He’d probably get 50 points in San Jose in Dan Boyle’s stead given the PP time, and given confidence.
So what do we have there? Lots of #4, #5, some #6’s, or potential #6 slots, maybe one #3, or one or two potential #3’s. He’s much more often a #5 or #6 than a #3. There is NO WAY he is a #3. I’ve just proved it.
I tried to educate you guys with my opinion. Instead of just taking my word and saying thank you, you had to fight it, of course. Now I’ve proven myself right. I am is White even a #3 on SJ??? Is he even better all-around than Doug Murray? Vlasic? I know you guys overvalue White’s offense most of all, but if I was picking on offense alone, I’d take Demers over White, easily. But, we are talking all-around, not just defense, so White probably slots in ahead of Demers. But that would still make White the #4 if Murray and Vlasic, along with Boyle, are better than him. And if they’re not, San Jose has the bar very low with defenseman, if you haven’t noticed from my comparisons. One team does not determine what’s a #3 and what’s a #4. It’s the competition that does. The group of teams with the top defenses determine the numerical slots, because that’s what everyone talks about when they ask for a #2 or #3 defenseman. It’s not, “we could really use a #2 defenseman to compare to the Edmonton Oilers.” It’s a #2 defenseman to match up against the other Cup Contending team’s #2 defenseman, in order to hopefully beat them in the playoffs.
You’re an asshole…. argue that.
Not just an asshole, she’s not even a sharks fan. She’s a fan of whoever the Sharks are playing on a given night.
For a real laugh, try reading some of her twitter posts. http://www.twitter.com/boyledshark22
And if your thinking “there is no fucking way she can fit her bullshit nonsense into twitter” your right. She can’t and that’s half the fun.
She’s currently been banned from Nucks Misconduct, Anaheim Calling, Jewels From the Crown and Fear the Fin (4 times at least) for pretending to be fans of those teams and pissing all of their readers off.
Tom, what was your diagnosis? Narcissistic something.
I’ve been reluctant to ban this person, but maybe I should reconsider. I’m particularly sensitive about banning people that are critical to us. I don’t want just yes-men (and women) here.
If you have an opinion about this, please post, or send us an email. On one hand, I want this site to be a place were people can feel free to air their grievances about us and the Sharks, but on the other hand, I don’t want all the threads to be hijacked.
I don’t believe for a second we’re all yes-men here. We often criticize the Sharks and their players, coaching, management. We are also capable of seeing the team in a positive light when they deserve it. They haven’t finished first in the West two years in a row because they’re garbage. They haven’t failed in the playoffs for a decade because they’re perfect. Spectrums of emotions and opinion are valid.
Basically, I think at some point you should contribute more to the conversation than bile if you want to be included in the conversation. I think evildoug/boyledshark/buttercrunch etc is completely incapable of that. She’s more than welcome to go write her own blog on blogspot and see if there are any fans out there that want to put up with her crap. She’s worse than Garner, and at least he’s just doing it for clicks.
ED… It’s narcissistic personality disorder… Yes. I think so.
I saw that thread on twitter….crazy. Im not sure Evildoug is a she though. I saw mymclife claim that but I guess I missed the connection.
Mike,
Here my two cents about evildoug… It’s kinda beyond annoying and I have to believe that others think twice about posting and generally joining in the discussion here because of him/her. I generally agree that banning people sucks unless it’s totally necessary. I think unless people are avoiding this blog because of it, I’m fine ignoring the novel size posts… As long as everyone else is fine with the random backlash from me too ;)…
To be honest, one of the reasons ED hasn’t been banned is because I enjoy the backlash so much :-).
Again, if anyone feels one way or the other about it, I want to know. I especially want to know if people are avoiding the comment section or DOH because of this person.
Probably a little bit of selection bias in this question… If there are people who avoid the comments because of Evil Doug, they certainly haven’t battled through another one of his derailed threads to get to your question.
True, I guess we’ll just keep going the way we’re going.
If you’re not going to ban her, I’ll see about writing a browser plug-in that won’t show any of her posts. I stopped reading her comments months ago and am getting to the point where I don’t even want to read the comments to her comments. Clearly, she gets a thrill anytime someone acknowledges her posts. The way I see it, until she gets banned or we all stick to our guns and collectively ignore her, it’s not going to stop.
I haven’t completely abandoned the site because of her, but I find that I’m not here as much and I don’t comment as much because I’m sick of it being all about this worthless piece of shit.
My apologies. I shouldn’t have called you worthless.
Crap, thought you meant me for a minute there.
While I enjoy the backlash and enjoy joining into the backlash even more, I feel bad for people who take her BS seriously or try and give her the benefit of the doubt. She’s praying on people trying to be reasonable for either her own amusement or to satisfy her narcissistic delusions. I don’t think either of those are acceptable.
All that said, I do occasionally like reading her screed for the same reason I watch Tosh.0. Watching idiots being idiots is strangely mesmerizing. Hell, she called Hedican a prostitute and now wants his private email so she can discuss why with him. I couldn’t make this crap up if I wanted to.
You know, I hate to encourage him/her/it… actually, I’m just gonna refer to EvilDoug forever now as “Rico – emperor of the interwebs”…
But Rico is actually responsible for so much ruckus on just about every Sharks board and blog across the web… it’s impressive realy…
Yeah, and Hitler was a great leader. Don’t feed the fire, dude.
Hey, Godwin’s Law – way to bring us full-circle!
I vote for banning, BTW.
What happens if she wins the DOH hockey league she’s in (currently sitting in 1st place)? After all posting and messageboard priviledges were revoked in that league, is she still eligible for a Skype appearance on the podcast?
And speaking of that league, SuperDudes is going down this week. Good down to China Town.
Ban please