DOH 157 – Burns Burns Burns
June 28th, 2011, 9:01 pm
The offseason has been so active thus far, with the Sharks in the thick of it, making a big trade for Brent Burns. The Dudes cover that, the draft, which free agents the Sharks might target, other NHL news, and reveal a possible new listener.
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Dan Boyle is so awesome! I met him once, he’s a real cool guy. He signed my jersey and was just a down to earth guy
So after listening to the podcast I have to ask why you didn’t factor in PK time at all when it comes to the 2 3rd line spots available. Reasoner and Fiddler look like better options than Belanger when it comes to PK forwards, but Mitchell can play center, too.
I agree that Reasoner and Fiddler are better PK options than Belanger, but Belanger was 3rd on Phoenix in PK time so it’s not like we’re talking about a PK novice. I agree that some of the guys playing the PK, Heater especially, need to see less ice time.
We need a Marchant or a Torres type who can make a major impact on the game physically and on the score sheet. I’m hoping for a 3rd line that will function more like an offensive line and do the dirty work. Wellwood was good, but he’s soft and his “just happy to be here” stance in the Conference Finals made me a little salty.
Let’s aim for Talbot and Reasoner with Mitchell. Speed, grit and experience. Good times.
hell of a podcast, boys. HELL OF A PODCAST. Typically I have a 25 min. commute home. I was stoked when I hit major traffic so there was enough time to finish the monster 47min. long podcast in the car.
I know FTF has made a really big deal out of needing PK forwards, but the Sharks already have 3 forward pairings in Pavs-Marleau, Thornton-Heatley, and Couture-Mitchell. Unless DW goes out and gets a dynamo like John Madden, I can’t imagine Tmac really trusting guys over those pairs. And from looking at the stats, the PK is not going to improve unless Pavs and Marleau bounce back.
Personally, I’m still on Tom’s page and would like to see Wellwood brought back with a splash like Lieno. Bringing in Lieno, who will likely cost around Seto money for Seto production, will turn the Burns trade into simply Coyle and a low 1st. Maybe bring Madden and let him babysit the 4th line and spot rest the other PKers.
While we have those pairings already, they were just bad at killing penalties off. Why not try and fill a need we do actually have. I’d rather have half those guys resting during the PK so they can put pressure on the other team after we kill it off.
Thornton and Heatley were very good at killing penalties. Mitchell I believe was an average PKer. Marleau has been a very good PKer for years until last year (when he was bad). Pavs had a good year two years ago, and was downright terrible last year. Assuming Pavs and Marleau merely regress to the mean of their historical performances, the Shark’s PK will be just fine.
If they are effective penalty killers, then I don’t see a good reason they shouldn’t be on the kill. Considering their conditioning, I don’t think the extra 1 minute of rest that a guy like Pavelski would get away from the PK (if the Sharks brought in a PK specialist) would have all that much effect on his performance later in a game. I certainly don’t think it would make up the difference between having a talent like Lieno 5v5 instead of a Jamal Mayers.
I’m not saying that an extra minute of ice time is hurting them. I want them coming onto the ice fresh as soon as the penalty is over to start pressuring. With those pairings we are splitting up our forwards so that our entire rotation is FUBAR as soon as we take a penalty. Practically every other team in the league uses their 3rd and 4th liners as primary PK guys, it’s time the Sharks do to. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that our offensive stars, almost to a man, had down years statistically as they picked up that extra defensive load.
Pavelski had a career high in points. Marleau scored the 3rd most goals in his career. And those guys were the problem.
Unfortunately, the way the PK is going to be improved is either by a) Pavs and Marleau getting better, or b) their minutes getting replaced by guys that will get it done. Despite the cold hard numbers, I have a hard time believing that TMac will take those two off the PK no matter who is brought in. So might as well get guys that can score 5v5 to cover for Patty’s and Pav’s mistakes on the PK if they continue to struggle, in my mind.
OTOH, I do think John Madden would be a great addition, a guy that would be okay getting 3-6 minutes on the 4th line, but chip in 2-3 minutes a night of excellent PKing.
Marleau and Pavs have been playing the PK for a long time now, so their numbers are right where they have been more or less. Pav’s is still improving and his point total going up isn’t a surprise. Marleau was down from last year, especially in assists.
Jumbo and Heater both took on much bigger defensive roles and a lot more PK time and saw their numbers fall off heavily.
Quibble over the minute or two all you want, the PK shift is a hell of a lot more exhausting than 5on5 or PP. When you roll out 4 or 5 of your top 6 (Couture plays PK too) who do you put on the ice after that penalty is killed? Your 3rd line? 4th line? So we want to give the team that gets to get into the groove offensively on the PP a shot at much weaker Qual Comp as soon as it ends? It’s not like you just roll your top line after they played the PK 1 shift earlier.
This is what 3rd liners are for. Even the Red Wings and Canucks use their 3rd and 4th liners to kill penalties for crying out loud and they’re all about rolling as many scoring lines as possible.
To be fair, don’t Burrows and Kesler spend as much time on the PK as almost any other forwards in the league?
Point taken, though, that the Sedins don’t kill penalties at all so VAN has a strong attack ready to go once they’re back to even strength.
To me the main factor in this debate is that the Sharks skill forwards who kill penalties are merely mediocre (and that’s generous, in my opinion). If they were awesome PKers then sure, there’s some decent value there. But Ruben, you don’t think a few scrubs could do the job as well or better? I think it’s a cop out to say the coach is going to play them there anyway, so we might as well get some 3rd liners who can score.
After the PP is over, the PP team also rolls out their 3rd and 4th line, usually. And, yes, the Sharks do roll their top line by playing Jumbo and Heatley on the last 30 seconds of every kill to try to catch a tired 2nd PP unit.
Last year, Marleau and Pavs gave up PK goals at about double the their career rates. They play to their career norms, and the PK problem gets solved. I’d rather money be spent on improving 5v5, so after the PK our 3rd line can go and crush their 3rd line.
@ Patrick
I would like to think DW would use 3rd line PKers more, but even when the Sharks had Malhotra and Nichol, Patty and Pavs led the team in PK time. I don’t think Ward and Fiddler would change TMac’s mind, but I could be wrong after the years Patty and Pavs had.
I do agree that there are 3rd liners that could do better than Patty and Pavs did last year. Heck, almost ANYBODY could do better than they did last year! But I don’t think many 3rd liners could do better than Patty and Pavs did from 2008-2010. Their numbers those years were very, very good. Which is why the Sharks were so good on the PK those years.
@ED and @Ruben….
So, ED if your contention is that we need more grinding 3rd liners for the PK because Marleau, Pavs and Jumbo shouldn’t be chained to those minutes – I half agree and disagree. For one I think Jumbo playing more on the PK has helped him change up his game and be more defensive minded. And I think Marleau and Pavs are the two strongest SH threats on the team. But if you’re gonna have only two scoring lines then yes, I want those guys on the ice 5v5 and PP.
But with three scoring lines that’s not the case. And I’m of the opinion that having three scoring lines forced our top guys to take ownership of “the otherside of the ice” – so to speak.
I’m not sure why can’t have guys like Leino, Wellwood AND grinders like Langenbrunner, Madden (even though he said it’s MINN or retire), or Talbot on the fourth line. Cause I gotta say our fourth line was fairly useless in the PO’s and that more than the third line seems to be the need.
And guys like I’ve mentioned, who have to be interchangeable anyways to play for T-Mac, can fill other roles. Talbot has scored in huge times, Leino was a beast in the PO’s, and we’ve seen Wellwood and that hellicopter line provide energy when needed to.
I just there is a danger in seeing players only in traditional roles that frankly have never held water under T-Mac.
Just saw another quote from Madden saying he and famiky are “willing to relocate” to a contender for a chance to win. I read the opposite previously.
No one mentioned him but what about Jan Hejda? He could fit in great especially if we can’t get White back. He’s a defensive defenseman and could play with Boyle or Burns.
Thoughts?
Yeah, the PK role probably helped improve Thornton’s game, but I think the ‘C’ had more to do with that than the PK time. Marleau and Pav’s were horrid on the PK, I hope they turn it around and expect to see them on the PK, but I’d like them to be the 2nd unit against a weaker PP unit from the other team. I believe that’s where they use to be.
I’d also like some good grinders to throw out there in the 3rd to hold onto leads. If we’re going to continue to attempt to sit on leads, I’d like to have some guys that can actually pull it off.
Madden, Fiddler, Miettinen, Ward, Belanger… they could all help out and have tons of experience doing just what we need.
Shut down the top guys, pressure the next group, run over their 3rd line with Jumbo and Heater as soon as we’re out of trouble.
Also, Hejda on the back end would be awesome. I also wouldn’t mind Jovanoski back there for a year while our kids grow a bit… He’d need a major pay cut though.
Love the point about Burns defensive abilities, and his having ‘cut his teeth’ under the tutelage of Jacques Lemaire. EXCELLENT point . . . ‘excellent’ . . .
I’m not sure Boyle would be a huge fan of you guys constantly saying he needs less ice time and that he looks tired in th playoffs. 🙂